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You know you're a doctor's family when...

... your kids get pneumonia at age 5 and 2! Good grief! It's the second time in less than 18 months that we have had pneumonia in the family! Kate has it now... we caught it earlier than when Izzy had it, thankfully, so she is avoiding a hospital stay most likely. But with a new baby in the house, it is a little scary, I have to say.
This came on super fast. Fever didn't even start until middle of the night Monday. We were treating Kate's illness like a run of the mill flu bug until yesterday, when she started to get those tell-tale pneumo signs. By late afternoon, I suspected that this was not your usual virus. So I took her to this great doctor at Jensen Family Medicine (he's pretty handsome, too) and he walked her over to get a chest x-ray at San Tan Urgent Care while I finished the day's kid shuttling. Scott and Dr. Brooks are great friends... anyway, they both spotted the pneumonia -- left lung. After a priesthood blessing and some serious antibiotics, we are on the road to recovery today. Oh, and she's got pink-eye on top of it! So if you're in the neighborhood... don't stop by! Run away! Run far, far away! ;-)








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Family Night or Bust!

Well, tonight it was kind of... bust, I guess. See, I had these great plans to take our Family Home Evening on the road, and go on a hike up the San Tans. With all of this rain, I'm sure that it is so beautiful and green, and Elaina is 8 weeks now, and I'm feeling like finally I could maybe survive it physically, and I just thought it would be such a fun outing. Well, Scott got home later than planned, and we were so slow getting ourselves out the door, that by the time we were actually on the road we had less than an hour of daylight left, and we still had to get gas. So, we took our "picnic" (yummy and cheap hamburgers from this odd gas station in town that has this Hispanic lady running a grill behind the counter - but that's another post entirely) to the library and I ate and fed Elaina in the car while Scott and the kids ate outside on the benches in the dark (thankfully the kids had brought flashlights for the hike, so they came in handy). What family togetherness! We finished eating with about 30 minutes to spare before the library closed. So we hustled in and barely had time to find our 5 books each and were the last to leave. Best laid plans...

So instead of posting gorgeous pictures of us in the rainy season desert, you'll have to settle for some shots of my kids' Christmas Graham Cracker Houses! Yes, I know that is totally, obnoxiously random... but don't we all just love it when someone posts holiday pics 2 months later? Josh was just today heard still playing his masterful rendition of "Carol of the Bells", so I figured it must be fate! ... So let's just say that the Christmas Spirit is still lingering here at the Jensen abode...





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"As the Mind Rambles" ... 1st Installment

Do you, like me, find yourself with a little snatch of time in your otherwise crazy day, where you are at a standstill for just a moment -- at a long traffic light, nursing a baby, robotically loading a dishwasher or washing machine, pausing as you pull into your garage with a van full of sleeping kids, staring abjectly into the mirror, waiting for that stutter of your electric toothbrush to tell you that time's up... you know those moments? Do you get random thoughts at those times like I do? Probably not.
Admittedly, I am indeed at those times, the thinker of Random Thoughts. Deep, provocative thoughts. Utterly useless, trivial thoughts. Doubt-filled, insecure thoughts. Hopeful, heart-warming thoughts. Thoughts of all sorts.
Well, I've decided that it's time to start a post series; to list some of these... for posterity, I guess?

Thoughts this week (just a few for starters):

  • Maybe we're not meant to ever figure out how to keep our house clean. My amazing Aunt Marilyn once told me, in reference to raising kids and running a household, that she thinks you just keep working at it and praying about it and trying, and changing up the system, and working at it and praying and crying over those kiddos and trying again, and changing it up again, and working at it some more and praying and trying... and then suddenly your children are grown and gone. You really don't ever "arrive"; where you've finally figured out exactly how to do it all, and then the rest of your child-rearing years are blissfully breezed through as you apply your revelations... Maybe we don't have clean houses until the only person responsible for making the mess is ourselves. With a little help from our husbands, of course. I'm really looking forward to that, actually.
  • Why doesn't it bother anyone else in the house that there are ALWAYS crumbs all over the kitchen counters? I live in a house of Constant Crummage Creation.
  • They say that those Olympians "make it look so easy". Don't you sometimes just want to know how hard it really is to do let's say... a triple axle? Or to spin yourself so fast that you get a nosebleed? I mean, really, some of what they do does not look humanly possible! But I would love to know what it feels like...
  • Newborns are the most angelic creatures on this planet. They are truly, amazingly pure. How lucky are we to hold them, feed them, kiss them, love them? What a wonder... Motherhood.

  • Seconds after Elaina's birth...

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I'M BAAAACK! Did you miss me?

Actually, I missed all of you clever people and your fun blogs! I'll be following again, so look for comments and send me new invites, if necessary, please... (Did you think I could write my first sentence in all this time without ending with an ellipsis (...) ? Never! Some things never change... :-0 )

Well, this is a big blogging step for me... to try this again a year later. It is so frustrating to start over, because I can't remember how to do anything! For instance, can anyone tell me why the three column blog backgrounds from hot bliggity blog don't work for me? Or how to use photobucket again? or is there something better now?

And with so much time undocumented, where does one begin, anyway? Certainly, my life been a whirlwind of change!

As many of you know, I'm easily distracted. So, I'm starting back slowly... and ultra simply, which is the greatest challenge for me. So this may be the most boring blog you've ever read... but, once again, I'm reminded of my old mantra: "Better boring than blank!" Too bad I couldnt have followed my own good advice!

Anyway, here is my latest, most blessed "distraction":


Elaina Jensen - born December 28, 2009
9 lbs 2 oz, 21" long

And here is an update of my four other beautiful "distractions"!

... and a matter of fact, the fourth little cutie is distracting me now, so off I go... hopefully I'll be back sooner than a year from now!
Love to all blogging buddies,
Debra

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Eek! I have ants in my pants!!!

Well actually, they are on my counter. Enclosed in glass. HUGE, REDDISH BLACK, menacing-looking Harvester Ants.

So Grandma and Grandpa Jensen sent this ant farm to us a few weeks ago, and then a few days ago the ants arrived in the mail in a little vial, kind of like a test tube. Yikes! Of course Scott was the only one home so he immediately dumped them into the farm without reading the instructions first... so he and I spent an hour after the kids were in bed fishing out the ones that didn't survive the trip, so that they wouldn't infect the others, without allowing any of their friends to make their escape! TRAUMA!!! Apparently when they die from here on out the other ants are supposed to bring them to the surface, but we haven't seen these valiant humanitarian efforts so far. By the next day one of them became entombed in one of the starter tunnels, and there he sits, as if to remind the others of what not to do, I guess.

So now we have these little darlings gracing our home for their lifespan, which is a few months, the booklet says. As soon as Kate laid eyes on them she yelled, "BEES!!" as plain as day, which is saying a lot for a child who only says about three words. Everytime we try to tell her no, they're ants, she screams in defiance," BEEEEEE!" Here's a shot without the freaky blue up-lights.

So, the "bees" are enjoying their new home, and making themselves more and comfortable. I'm not sure I'm so comfortable, however! I'm envisioning Kate climbing up on the counter (which she was caught doing today for the first time) and knocking the "bees" down and right out of their "hive"!!!! And into my house! Oh, and just to ease our minds, the packing label on the ant shipment reads "against state law to release ants into the wild". Huh? "Must be kept in captivity"?????? A little bizarre... but, the kids are already starting to get attached to them. They talk to them, sing songs to them, think up reasons why they might have dug a tunnel that goes in an arch, taking them right back where they started from, cheer them on when they've almost made it all the way through from the bottom to the top... they're officially part of the family!
So if you're in the neighborhood, stop in to see our space -aged ant farm... oh yes, I mean habitat... or, even better, HOME...(OOOH, I don't like the sound of that!)

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Joshua's First Pinewood Derby

O.K., before this week is over, I better document Joshua's first pinewood derby! I don't have the greatest pictures of this one... but I'm throwing them in anyway! I was proud of Scott for staying up late several nights to make it happen, especially when he was doing it for the first time as well, and handymanning is not his forte. I wanted to help with the painting, and unfortunately that got pushed until Saturday morning, the day of the race. I ran to harvest at the ward garden in the morning, and when I got home to help Josh finish the painting, I realized that Scott had already put the wheels on, and that we couldn't paint our design exactly right because the wheels were in the way. Anyway, long story short... I asked Scott if he could take the wheels off, he said that it would compromise the stability of the car, I complained and whined, mainly just frustrated and irritated by the whole thing, but then he reacted to that by prying one of the wheels off, splitting a small part of the wood underneath the car, and I went totally ballistic! I completely lost it, and started screaming out of control... something about this stupid stupid car, that I never wanted him to take the wheels off if it would break the car, that I can't believe he would over-react to my whining by compromising the car, that I didn't even want to go to the stinkin' derby, yes, that's it, I'm just not going, that why do they want these boys to do something that puts all kinds of pressure on the parents to produce this...
Oooohhhh... it was ugly. What a wonderful scouting tradition, the pinewood derby! Well, after Scott and I had to separate for a few hours, and after a lengthy texted (and then later in person) apology on my part, we finished the car, and all went to the church, and he performed respectably. He won one race, was 2nd place in two, and third in one. Not bad considering all of my doom and gloom in the morning. I even set Josh up with the famous... "you-may-lose-every-single-race-and-it-doesn't-matter" talk. Good grief! My drama, drama, drama! Hopefully things will be better next year...

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Recipe W.O.W. Re-DO #4: Baked Chicken and Rice





My mom went through a lot of cooking phases as we grew up. A few that I remember most vividly were the "stir fry" months (she really made us respect the wok!), and the "sprouting" period (our laundry room became a veritable greenhouse for sprouts of all kinds), and the "juicing" stage (I still LOVE carrot juice because of this one! Celery juice on the other hand...), and in more recent years, the "bundt cake" phase (every family gathering was a new bundt surprise... Sometimes she would make 2 or 3 at the same time just to taste test them!).

What I didn't know as a child during all of these phases, which were so exciting and fun for us, was how much work it was! Just to get a home-cooked dinner on the table each night is a major accomplishment in my world, and I'm sure with 3 little girls within 4 years under foot, was an incredible feat for my mom! But overarching all of her cooking ins and outs, there are a few recipes that were our family "classics". Deliciously simple flavors, easy to put together, readily available ingredients, crowd pleasers; everyone in the family loved them. These were the ones that withstood the test of time; and my mom still makes them a lot. The only downside to these classics is that some of their ingredients are... well let's just say that they've been on my black list for several years. You know the typical 60's-90's era offenders? Condensed cream soups, the Oh-so-msg-fruitful Powdered Soup Mixes, trans-fat shortenings, and stuff like that. So of course, these were some of the first ones on my list to Re-Do. It's been tricky, but I've been playing around with a few of them, and I think I've finally got this one to a point that momma would still be proud to claim it as her own.

Katy's Baked Chicken and Rice

(please forgive me for some of these amounts... they may not be exact)

Either 1 whole chicken, cut up, or 1 large pkg bone-in, (that's right not boneless!) thighs, breasts, and legs (should be about 6-8 pieces, depending on the size and cut, the last time I made this I used only thighs and legs)

1 pckg whole baby portabella or crimini mushrooms, sliced thin or small dice
1 onion, chopped fine

2 heaping TB dehydrated onion
1/2 tsp garlic powder
1/2 tsp onion powder
2 heaping tsp salt
28 oz carton good quality chicken broth (I love Imagine or Pacific organic brands, the taste difference is huge)
2 cups sour cream

2 cups basmati rice

Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
In a skillet, add the mushrooms and onions, drizzle well with olive oil; saute down until translucent and golden.


In a bowl, combine dehydrated onion, garlic powder, onion powder, salt, chicken broth, and sour cream; whisk until smooth. In a 9X13 pan (I use metal for this, but I think you can use glass) place rice, mushroom and onion, and broth mixture; stir to combine. Nestle chicken pieces down into the rice. Turn to coat the top of the chicken pieces, but if you're pan is deep enough, you should only have a little bit of the chicken showing above the rice mixture. Bake uncovered, 60-90 minutes, or until chicken juices run clear and rice is light and fluffy.

I bet you didn't think it was going to be this simple! That's my mom's style... and I tried not to add anything fancy to change the straight-forward flavor. Now, I know that bone-in meat is out of fashion, but it really effects the flavor and cooking time of this dish, so just enjoy the savings! I bet you could even do this with all drumsticks... kids love those.

Side note: My family growing up ALWAYS adds sour cream to top this on their plates. We were almost addicted to sour cream... I've since tried to refrain from doing that, and I think this still comes out moist and flavorful... but if you are the type that wants your rice to be creamy, a dollop will do ya, as they say. Pair with green beans, jell-0, and a green salad with homemade buttermilk dressing, and you've got a classic Rosenhan family Sunday meal. Here's to you, Mom! Happy Birthday!

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Making up for lost photo ops...

I'm sorry about this, yet another shoot of my baby, but you see, I hardly took any pictures of this kid her first year and a half of life! Remember, I did not have a digital camera... (not a good excuse, I know!)
Anyway, so I'm trying to make up for some lost time. This was on an overcast day when I was feeling downright crummy. A friend in the ward crocheted this cap and gave it to Kate the day before, and when I put it on her I knew that we needed to just forget our troubles and have a photo moment. She doesn't understand hold still and look at the camera, so I just followed her around our yard. We played peek-a-boo behind the vines, and collected rocks, and pulled blossoms off the apricot tree. I smiled the whole time... I hope you will, too! Thanks, Kate!

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"Roses are red, violets are blue..." My husband writes poetry... who knew?



Every year since we've been married, Scott has given me flowers for Valentine's --and I LOVE flowers!! This year, however, we already had some lovely roses from left over from a meeting earlier in the month gracing our home, and another bouquet that Scott picked up for a family gathering at our house a week or so ago. Also, I wanted to save a little money, and Valentine's flowers are such a gouge... So, I asked him for a favor this Valentine's. In lieu of flowers this year, I would love the gift of a clean bathroom, and a little something written from him to me. Didn't have to be poetry of course, but... o.k. I was hoping. Well, I'm sure that he was thinking, "Man, if I could just get the flowers and be done with it!" But, I'm a tricky lover, you know? Always keeping him on his toes! So on Valentine's morning, under my cell phone, I found a strip of paper, and on it was this:


Thirteen Valentines For Our Thirteenth Valentine's Day -- Feb 14, 2009

I think you will consider it a fine interlude; it starts in a place with the beatitudes.
(So I got the kid's together and we started our hunt... we have some blocks with Pres. Hinckley's 6 B's, and that is where the next one was:)

1. "Charity... suffereth long..."
Your longsuffering toward me makes glad my head, I would have you look next to where we sometimes find bread. (the bread basket)

2."...is kind..."
Your kindness to me is a welcome repose, and so your kind words; they smell like a rose... (off we went to the flowers on the kitchen counter)

3."...envieth not..."
You help me remember that life is not about gain, but hope to snatch eternity in this world of much pain. Go to the place where the mammon abounds in great coinage; you will see, the new clue will astound! (I was cracking up too hard to go find this one..."mammon abounds in great coinage?" the kids found it on the change jar in the office)

4. "...Vaunteth not... is not puffed up..."
You help me remember on God to rely, instead of myself as a tiny black fly. (on top of the fridge next to the fly swatter... how romantic!)

5. "...rejoice not in iniquity..."
What I watch on TV or see on the Dish, If I care not or perceive not, might stink like a fish. SO now I watch very carefully the place where it lies, this box of these wonders, these shows, and I am apprised. (what part of this one is about his everlasting love for me? I have no idea...)

6. "...not behave itself unseemingly..."
Don't go to Wal-Mart in your pajamas indeed, (I'm always harping on him about doing this) if you do you may find that you stand out like a weed. But, use good language and spell right, and "THINK ON THESE THINGS" (We have a wall plaque that says this)

7. "...seeketh not her own..."
You serve others so smartly so well, and so true, you seek not your own and you do shat is true. You teach joy in service and you do it so well, I love to see you mixing that bread I love so well. (the first thing Olivia said was, "How many 'so well's' are you going to put in there, Dad?!" He must have been getting tired, but you have to admit this is just so cute...)

8. "... is not easily provoked..." (Anyone who really knows me knows that this one would be a stretch...)
I am grateful for your patience. I am grateful very much. I am glad you spare your anger while I let the trash keep piling up. (He knew he was safe here, because he never lets the trash pile up!)

9. "...thinketh no evil..."
Your mouth is a pleasant fountain of good and righteous words. I love to hear you speak softly as a flea lights upon a bird. (What?!?) Your words betray your goodness, and make me feel so cheery. Your company a blessing, like a wreath of bright red berries. (Huh? Of course we knew where the next clue was after that one...)

10. "...rejoices in truth..."
I know you love the scriptures, and can recite those timely verses. You shared some timely counsel from the Journal of Discourses. (My current favorite church reference book, much to my husband's delight)

11."...beareth all things..."
Bearing the sons of men is a job that is quite daunting, but you bare it up so well that it seems not so alarming. I hope I have the faith to put on God's armor and that my faith is not like the kind that sits upon the armoir. (Boy we were almost stumped on that one, until we noticed the 'faith' plaque on top of the TV cabinet. Then I remembered the night before as he was at the computer him asking me, what's the cabinet that holds the TV called? It's an armoir, honey...)

12. "...believeth all things..."
Your testimony of the truth is built upon a rock. I am strengthenend by your witness and I know others are as well. If you seek a tiny witness hole, you may find the final clue. (it was stuck in the front door peep hole)

13. "...endureth all things..."
I know that together we can endure to the end and find the blessings that our Father has for us. I am eternally grateful to be yours. Be mine. I love you dearly, and Happy Valentine's Day,
Love, Scott ( That one was worth the whole thing. What a cutie!)

So when you ask for an alternative to flowers, be prepared!!! So of course, I think now it is clearer why we laugh because of how "not funny" we are! I was laughing so hard through the whole thing that I had to go back and reread them to catch the sentiment! Scott, I love your random, quacky humor, but especially your sweetness. You actually embody more of these attributes of charity than I do, and you do it without drawing any attention to yourself. I love you, sweetheart!

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Making Sweets with a Sweetie...


As soon as she realized that it was "Valentime's", Isabelle has been prolific in the craft room churning out card after card... and giving them to everyone that steps foot in the door this week. This is most definitely HER holiday...

So, following her sweet lead, and as part of my New Year's determination to take life "in moments" and make (and record) more memories, I actually did something this week that I have been meaning to do but have not done since the whirlwind of our move here to QC and all that has commenced since. I MADE SUGAR COOKIES! Now stop laughing... I know it sounds ridiculous, but this is a big deal for me!
debrajensen/Sugar Cookies

Yes, it took me ALL WEEK to make the 2 batches, (I thought we would do them for F.H.E., and I didn't even manage to get the dough finished before we had to call it quits and send everyone to bed... yes, they were all smiles as we tucked them in without dessert!). So I knew I would be finishing them either late at night or at Kate's naptime with Izzy (which ended up being both)...

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As sad as it sounds, it is very hard to me to stop my constant, the-work-never-ends-so-I-can't-stop-working mode to actually slow down, let it go, and just make cookies. And especially sugar cookies. You know, the zero-nutritional-reward-for-hours-of-tedious-labor cookies! Pure unadulterated sugar just for kicks is really not my style. And of course I had to search and search for a recipe that didn't call for shortening (this health nut has her standards, you know! As warped as that sounds...) And to be honest, if I hadn't have had to make them for Izzy's class party (I was chairperson, and the treat sign ups were both conveniently out of town) I don't know now if I would have even done it at all. And boy, wouldn't it have been tragic to miss this smile...
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So, I may have let my house go further down the drain, and let the laundry lion win his match again this week, but WE MADE SUGAR COOKIES!!!

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And I sat with Izzy as we decorated them, and we played the "echo song" game, with a Valentine's theme. It goes something like this: Izzy sings an original melody and word phrase, and then I repeat it exactly ( Or at least I try to, even with the atonal-sounding tritones she throws at me!). Then after awhile we switch places, and I make up the phrases and Izzy repeats them. It's great ear training, actually. When you repeat the phrases a few times, it starts to actually sound like a song! Ours ended up something like this, with Izzy in the "composer's seat":

Oh, how I love Valentime's Day!
(Oh, how I love Valentime's Day...)
It puts so much joy in my heart
(It puts so much joy in my heart...)
It's all about loving and giving
(It's all about loving and giving...)
and it's just such a wonderful time
(and it's just such a wonderful time...)
Wonderful, Wonderful, Wonderful, Wonderful, (sung in the stratospheric child's upper register) Valentime's Day!
(Wonderful, Wonderful, etc... Valentime's Day!)
it's my favorite day of ALL...(sing your highest possible note here, mine was an impressive high B flat that day, I even ran over to the piano and checked :) )
(it's my favorite day of ALL..)
etc..

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We sat at the counter frosting and sprinkling, and sang our hearts out, verse after verse, for a good 30 minutes. Just Isabelle and me, having each other all to ourselves. A simple thing, but one of the sweetest of my motherhood thus far. Now that was a moment worth making a mess for...


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"Good Times, Good Times..." A Month In Review

Good Grief! It's tough to get on here and post as often as I would like to! I talked to a friend the other day who has an absolutely darling blog (the illustrious Molly Reynolds, click here) and she gave me two great gems of blogging advice: 1) YOU own the blog; the blog doesn't own you, and 2) Find your groove. Loved those two thoughts. Well, I certainly haven't found my groove yet (or in my case, my 'jive', I guess...), but I'm enjoying the opportunity to preserve memories. My children look forward to each post tremendously, and really, that's the point. Anyway, until I achieve a more predictable blog post routine, I wanted to document some of our great moments of the last 3 or 4 weeks.
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Josh's first Blue and Gold Banquet!
They asked all of the Scouts to make and decorate a birthday cake, to be "wacky judged" and eaten for dessert. Joshua displayed his latest Indiana Jones lego masterpieces. He worked on them for hours to get every detail right. Unfortunately, about 20 minutes after this picture was taken, some over-active fellow scouts decided that they wanted to "rebuild " his cake... and dissassembled his vehicles and smashed the pieces into the cake! It was unbelievable. Josh cried all the way home, and for about an hour after. You know, I didn't know when they said that Scouting would make your sons stronger that this might be the way it would occur... to teach them how to handle their thoughtless peers? Well, we all better get ready to toughen up a bit, because next pack meeting is the infamous pinewood derby! Oh, I can't wait...
Here is Josh playing the "eat-a-saltine-cracker-and-try-to-whistle" game... Don't you just want to kiss those little scout lips!!
debrajensen/Jan Feb Recap


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LION KING at Grady Gammage auditorium!!!
We bought group tickets about a year ago... and here we all are! The show was AWESOME!!!
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Here's my Broadway Babies after the show! We had a ball...

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We took a trip to Las Vegas for my cousin Alex Green's missionary homecoming. As always, it was a wonderful opportunity to connect with some of most fun, uplifting, classy people that I know! (Of, course, they're my family, so I might be a little biased...) But in reality, we feel so lucky and blessed to have extended family that set such fine examples of testimony and dedication to the gospel for our children to follow. It is inspiring to see, and it makes you want to keep such a legacy of faith going with your generation... Love you, cuz's!
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This is my dad in his "element". Playing his old classic sing-alongs on the guitar while his family harmonizes...I think he's singing here one of our family favorites: "Nothing's Quite As Pretty As ______(fill in child's name) In The Morning" Of course as kids we would all scream for him to put our names in... and he would make a special verse for each one of us. I love you, Dad!

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Whenever Kate can make eye contact with someone lately, whether friend or stranger, she asks for food (signs of course)! Here is proof that I really do feed her! Just look at those Jersey Cow eyes... I'll have to post another fairy tale sometime to tell the tale of how they came about!

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Forts are a frequent occurrence at our house, but I rarely get a shot of them in use. This one is definitely not their best work, but they were having so much fun under it, and I was especially impressed that Kate was staying in one spot for more than 30 seconds! What a bunch of cuties...
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'LONDON'S RUN'NERS!!! As many of you know, Queen Creek has an annual cancer benefit run in honor of a girl named London... it's a wonderful event. This year Kate, Izzy and I opted out, but Scott and the kids did the 2 mile fun run. Next year it's the half marathon for sure! Hee, hee! We lingered afterwards and enjoyed the festivities, complete with... face painting! Kate acted like she was being branded when she got hers... what a drama queen!

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...face painting! Kate acted like she was being branded when she got hers... what a drama queen!


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And last but not least...
Our stake has a garden... and our ward has a section of it! At the beginning of January we went as a family and helped cultivate (I think that's the soft term for 'yanking nasty weeds'), and last week for F.H.E. we were able to help harvest it! It was a mudbog that evening, but here are the fruits of our (and many other wonderful saints') labors. Yes, I get excited about pictures of fresh, homegrown (and FREE!) produce! And Kate shared my enthusiasm in helping me bag it up... YUMMM!!!!

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Well, that's a recap for now... maybe next month I'll actually blog as the events happen! Baby steps, Deb, baby steps...